MICHAEL VICK…the dawg[sic] killer
Michael Vick, who was once the highest paid man in the NFL with his 135 million dollar contract, is back with the League as a Philadelphia Eagles (according to ESPN). In this First Take clip , one gets the opportunity to hear from some expert NFL commentators about how they felt about Michael Vick’s 60 minutes interview. The question which is posed by the host, Jay Crawford, of the show is do you think Michael Vick was sincere or coached for the interview. Ryan Stewart of “2 Live STEWS” comes immediately to the defense of Michael Vick saying “this guy was once the face of the entire league. After doing [time] in jail, after admitting to drowning dogs and killing dogs he better be coached!” Doug Stewart of “2 Live Stews” also seconds the defense that Michael Vick was coached, but still Doug Stewart “definitely believes [Michael Vick] is sorry.” The First Take clip goes on, but this is where I want to start our conversation about Michael Vick.
httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAiwbqkr6Ao
I don’t know about you, but I am very doubtful of his remorse for his action, but I do honestly believe he wishes he hadn’t gotten caught and lost the 135 million dollar contract. I am sure everyone is familiar with the atrocity that occurred at Michael Vick’s Smithfield, Virginia estate, but here is a clip attached to an ESPN article just in case you missed out. According to the ESPN article, Bad Newz Kennel started in early 2002. It wasn’t until the June 7th 2007 raid, that police found the remains of seven dogs.
From there we learn that not only was Michael Vick the financer, but he was also a participant in the execution of the dogs. According to the court released information, the dogs that lost their fights were hung, drowned, electrocuted and slammed against the ground as different forms of execution. This dog-fighting business went on for at least five solid years, and now we are to believe that he feels remorse? Moreover, during the court case he repeatedly lied so much that the judge sent him to have a polygraph test. It was only under the police administering the “lie-detector” test that he confessed his intimate involvement with the dogs’ executions. The problem/question becomes that after he has served his 23 months sentence in prison should he get to play in the NFL again.
The ireporter talks to an avid football fan about how he feels about Michael Vick being re-instated into the NFL and getting a 2 year contract with the Eagles. I have to agree with the fan. Michael Vick did do his time, and therefore, like other players who have actually killed people, Michael Vick should be given a second chance. However, I disagree that this case is like Donte Stallworth’s case. I think we see a continuous act of cruelty on the part of Michael Vick that went on for 5 years, whereas Donte Stallworth’s case was poor judgement in driving home drunk and killing unintentionally a person. So although Michael Vick should play again, I think he should be forced to do the following:
- to donate a substantial portion of his income (for the next 5 plus years) to animal rights organizations as well as continuing to work closely with the Animal Cruelty Society
- seek the appropriate mental health treatment
hi supernerd,
i agree with you regarding the comparisons: outside of them both being professional football players, i’m not sure i see how analogous the vick and stallworth cases are. however, i don’t agree with your implicit assessment that stallworth is less cruel, if you will, because his acts weren’t premeditated and because vick’s were, esp. given the fact that stallworth had previously been in the league’s substance abuse program. the key difference, from what i can tell, is that stallworth acted responsibly after the fact, while vick tried to cover up his act(s) by lying. i think that was why there was a such stark difference in their respective punishments.
i’m also curious about this desire by you and others to suggest that vick continue to be punished in some way, despite the fact that he has already served his time, paid his debt. i find this impulse especially curious, since vick–apologetic or not–did exactly what he was compelled to do by the courts, including paying nearly a million dollars for the care of the dogs that were confiscated from his property. and he has already started a relationship with the humane society. if the (in)justice system has deemed this punishment appropriate, why is there a need for further conversation about what else vick should be “forced” to do?
do you believe persons convicted of certain crimes, should they even be able to secure a job after being released from prison, be compelled to donate a substantial portion of their income to those they violated?
finally, i’m also curious about the mental point you make. suggesting that someone seek mental treatment connotes some really complicated and stick things. can you say more about what you mean by that?
hi supernerd,
i agree with you regarding the comparisons: outside of them both being professional football players, i’m not sure i see how analogous the vick and stallworth cases are. however, i don’t agree with your implicit assessment that stallworth is less cruel, if you will, because his acts weren’t premeditated and because vick’s were, esp. given the fact that stallworth had previously been in the league’s substance abuse program. the key difference, from what i can tell, is that stallworth acted responsibly after the fact, while vick tried to cover up his act(s) by lying. i think that was why there was a such stark difference in their respective punishments.
i’m also curious about this desire by you and others to suggest that vick continue to be punished in some way, despite the fact that he has already served his time, paid his debt. i find this impulse especially curious, since vick–apologetic or not–did exactly what he was compelled to do by the courts, including paying nearly a million dollars for the care of the dogs that were confiscated from his property. and he has already started a relationship with the humane society. if the (in)justice system has deemed this punishment appropriate, why is there a need for further conversation about what else vick should be “forced” to do?
do you believe persons convicted of certain crimes, should they even be able to secure a job after being released from prison, be compelled to donate a substantial portion of their income to those they violated?
finally, i’m also curious about the mental point you make. suggesting that someone seek mental treatment connotes some really complicated and stick things. can you say more about what you mean by that?
i agree with summer and am troubled by analysis that continue to try and inflict some punishment after the court-assigned punishments have been fulfilled. i’m even more troubled by people who place the lives of dogs over the lives of humans. there are a number of individuals in the football league who continue to get the support of fans after domestic violence convictions.
i’m also unclear about the idea that he get “mental health” treatment. would like to hear more about this as well.
i agree with summer and am troubled by analysis that continue to try and inflict some punishment after the court-assigned punishments have been fulfilled. i’m even more troubled by people who place the lives of dogs over the lives of humans. there are a number of individuals in the football league who continue to get the support of fans after domestic violence convictions.
i’m also unclear about the idea that he get “mental health” treatment. would like to hear more about this as well.
Hi Summer,
Given the work I do with homeless populations, I tend to see impaired-judgment as part of the disease of alcoholism. In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM4), Alcoholism is categorized as a disease. As a result, the reason why Stallworth’s case isn’t as cruel has to do with the fact that he is battling the disease of alcoholism, whereas Michael Vick, the highest paid player in the NFL, was killing animals for 5 years straight (not even for subsistence, but for a blood-sport and recreation).
Not only did home-boy Vick lie, until the judge slapped that ass with a lie-detector test,but he was so unapologetic about his crimes and inhumane treatment of these animals that I am forced to believe he suffers from a lack of empathy. Please revisit the pictures on my post, tell me we aren’t talking about a very troubled individual with undoubtedly some, as Edward puts it, “antisocial behaviors.”
In terms of why their punishments were so distinctly different, I agree (in part) with you, but I also will add that it was because of the severity of Michael Vick’s killing (or executions) of these dogs.
PUNISHMENT:
I think you raise a good point about Vick serving his time and asking if the follow up ‘punishment’ is necessary. Since Michael Vick has served his time, I agree with the Ireporter interviewee that he should play football again.
In terms of further ‘penalty,’ I was thinking of things the league (and society at large) could sanction/demand. For instance, Jeffrey Lurie, the owner of the Philly Eagles, told Michael Vick (and the public) that he is going to measure Michael Vick’s success in terms of what he is doing in the community, not on the football field. Below is a link that shows Tony Dungy discussing Jeffery Lurie’s statement (minute 3:54: remember this clip counts down). See this link: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4399281&categoryid=2459789 (Tony Dungy)
Skip Bayless, in the First Take clip I provide, says it best, “I’m tired of trying to analyze what Michael Vick says… I don’t know because to me at this point actions are gonna speak much louder than words. We know for a fact that he convincingly/successfully lied to Arthur Blank a couple times and the Commissioner once before he went to jail. Right? I think he is very good at lying when he wants to!”
My personal beliefs about particular crimes:
For certain crimes like the trafficking of women, children and animals for sex, abuse or other harms, I find there is a need to make the punishment financial. The NGOs across the globe, who work on the aforementioned issues, are often times under-funded. These so called “business folks” should be ‘forced’ as part of their punishment to pay into a fund to support the NGOs and their efforts to stop such illicit activities. I hope that I am being clear.
There is a difference for me in that Michael Vick was the owner of these dogs. He raised over 50 pit bulls as pets/fighters. Domesticated animals have little, if any, agency and are left (usually) to their owner’s whim. Without voices to communicate, how can animals speak truth to power? Unfortunately, they can’t. Therefore, it behooves us to provide in our laws for the safety and humane treatment of animals.
Additionally, Bad News Kennel was in action for at least 5 years. Those dogs suffered under his tyrannical ownership for at least five years. So why not make the duration of a victimizer’s punishment equivalent to both the number of years involved and the volume of victims (e.g., women, children or animals) he or she produced?
Mental evaluation comment:
I was talking with a coworker, who is a trained clinical psychologist and social worker from University of Pennsylvania, about Michael Vick. In our discussion, I suggested to her that I think he might suffer from a mental health issue. Agreeing, she indicated that his complete lack of empathy would possibly suggest a mental health disorder. Moreover, I believe he needs to be evaluated to determine the severity of whatever issue that allowed him to run a death camp for animals.
Hi Summer,
Given the work I do with homeless populations, I tend to see impaired-judgment as part of the disease of alcoholism. In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders(DSM4), Alcoholism is categorized as a disease. As a result, the reason why Stallworth’s case isn’t as cruel has to do with the fact that he is battling the disease of alcoholism, whereas Michael Vick, the highest paid player in the NFL, was killing animals for 5 years straight (not even for subsistence, but for a blood-sport and recreation).
Not only did home-boy Vick lie, until the judge slapped that ass with a lie-detector test,but he was so unapologetic about his crimes and inhumane treatment of these animals that I am forced to believe he suffers from a lack of empathy. Please revisit the pictures on my post, tell me we aren’t talking about a very troubled individual with undoubtedly some, as Edward puts it, “antisocial behaviors.”
In terms of why their punishments were so distinctly different, I agree (in part) with you, but I also will add that it was because of the severity of Michael Vick’s killing (or executions) of these dogs.
PUNISHMENT:
I think you raise a good point about Vick serving his time and asking if the follow up ‘punishment’ is necessary. Since Michael Vick has served his time, I agree with the Ireporter interviewee that he should play football again.
In terms of further ‘penalty,’ I was thinking of things the league (and society at large) could sanction/demand. For instance, Jeffrey Lurie, the owner of the Philly Eagles, told Michael Vick (and the public) that he is going to measure Michael Vick’s success in terms of what he is doing in the community, not on the football field. Below is a link that shows Tony Dungy discussing Jeffery Lurie’s statement (minute 3:54: remember this clip counts down). See this link: http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4399281&categoryid=2459789 (Tony Dungy)
Skip Bayless, in the First Take clip I provide, says it best, “I’m tired of trying to analyze what Michael Vick says… I don’t know because to me at this point actions are gonna speak much louder than words. We know for a fact that he convincingly/successfully lied to Arthur Blank a couple times and the Commissioner once before he went to jail. Right? I think he is very good at lying when he wants to!”
My personal beliefs about particular crimes:
For certain crimes like the trafficking of women, children and animals for sex, abuse or other harms, I find there is a need to make the punishment financial. The NGOs across the globe, who work on the aforementioned issues, are often times under-funded. These so called “business folks” should be ‘forced’ as part of their punishment to pay into a fund to support the NGOs and their efforts to stop such illicit activities. I hope that I am being clear.
There is a difference for me in that Michael Vick was the owner of these dogs. He raised over 50 pit bulls as pets/fighters. Domesticated animals have little, if any, agency and are left (usually) to their owner’s whim. Without voices to communicate, how can animals speak truth to power? Unfortunately, they can’t. Therefore, it behooves us to provide in our laws for the safety and humane treatment of animals.
Additionally, Bad News Kennel was in action for at least 5 years. Those dogs suffered under his tyrannical ownership for at least five years. So why not make the duration of a victimizer’s punishment equivalent to both the number of years involved and the volume of victims (e.g., women, children or animals) he or she produced?
Mental evaluation comment:
I was talking with a coworker, who is a trained clinical psychologist and social worker from University of Pennsylvania, about Michael Vick. In our discussion, I suggested to her that I think he might suffer from a mental health issue. Agreeing, she indicated that his complete lack of empathy would possibly suggest a mental health disorder. Moreover, I believe he needs to be evaluated to determine the severity of whatever issue that allowed him to run a death camp for animals.
Summer, “i’m also curious about this desire by you and others” to avoid the true gruesome nature of Vick’s doings. What does it mean to “you” that 8 dogs were found executed in 2007? What does it mean to “you” that 55 dogs were locked in cages with scars, starving and beaten? What does it mean for “you” to elide the gruesome nature of this man’s alter-ego? Do “you” see him as not mentally disturbed? If so then why?
Summer, “i’m also curious about this desire by you and others” to avoid the true gruesome nature of Vick’s doings. What does it mean to “you” that 8 dogs were found executed in 2007? What does it mean to “you” that 55 dogs were locked in cages with scars, starving and beaten? What does it mean for “you” to elide the gruesome nature of this man’s alter-ego? Do “you” see him as not mentally disturbed? If so then why?
supernerd,
yes, alcoholism, drug addiction are diseases (if you are rich enough; crimes if you are poor) that need to be treated, but i don’t think that excuses stallworth’s behavior. and cruelty might be a matter of perspective. i imagine one or more of his victim’s family members might regard stallworth(‘s acts as cruel). but that wasn’t really my point. i don’t think it’s productive to compare the acts.
i’m not sure what you meant by the scare quotes around you–collective you? individual you? you as a dubious term?–but i’ll answer as, well, me. i think it’s reprehensible and unfortunate that vick chose to engage in those acts. i like dogs more than i like most people. so to be clear, i never ignored vick’s actions. i was simply commenting on the punishment–which does not imply that i support what he did. further, i’ll reserve judgment re: vick’s mental state because 1. i’m not a doctor, and 2. any and all information i have/receive about vick is mediated. so i can’t call it. that said, i think everybody needs therapy.
supernerd,
yes, alcoholism, drug addiction are diseases (if you are rich enough; crimes if you are poor) that need to be treated, but i don’t think that excuses stallworth’s behavior. and cruelty might be a matter of perspective. i imagine one or more of his victim’s family members might regard stallworth(‘s acts as cruel). but that wasn’t really my point. i don’t think it’s productive to compare the acts.
i’m not sure what you meant by the scare quotes around you–collective you? individual you? you as a dubious term?–but i’ll answer as, well, me. i think it’s reprehensible and unfortunate that vick chose to engage in those acts. i like dogs more than i like most people. so to be clear, i never ignored vick’s actions. i was simply commenting on the punishment–which does not imply that i support what he did. further, i’ll reserve judgment re: vick’s mental state because 1. i’m not a doctor, and 2. any and all information i have/receive about vick is mediated. so i can’t call it. that said, i think everybody needs therapy.
Hi Alexb,
Like Summer, I hear your point about trying to “inflict some punishment after the court-assigned punishments have been fulfilled.” If you have read my message to Summer, I think you will find my stance logical (even if we disagree). I take issue with your next point, because you imply that placing a value on an animal’s life reduces the value of a human’s life. I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Ultimately, I think animal and human life are valuable and have values that are independent as well as in relationship to each other. The problem with your statement is that it creates a zero-sum analysis. I think such zero-sum analyses are often times used to speciously discount a valuable argument. Zero-sum analyses are very unrewarding, because they leave little room for developing a “mutual understanding.”
Alexb, I would ask that you and I look at my post and its framework together. To my knowledge and credit, I never professed that the animals’ lives were more important than Michael Vick’s life. I never said that Michael Vick doesn’t deserve a second chance in the NFL. In fact, I said the opposite. I even support Jeffrey Lurie in giving Michael Vick a second chance, particularly with the conditions he stated in the press conference.
Although unrelated to my post, you add a very interesting point about the prevalence of domestic violence in the NFL. I think you raise a valid point and I would suggest in your future post(s) that you bring this issue to light.
Thanks again…glad to see you’re writing.
Hi Alexb,
Like Summer, I hear your point about trying to “inflict some punishment after the court-assigned punishments have been fulfilled.” If you have read my message to Summer, I think you will find my stance logical (even if we disagree). I take issue with your next point, because you imply that placing a value on an animal’s life reduces the value of a human’s life. I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. Ultimately, I think animal and human life are valuable and have values that are independent as well as in relationship to each other. The problem with your statement is that it creates a zero-sum analysis. I think such zero-sum analyses are often times used to speciously discount a valuable argument. Zero-sum analyses are very unrewarding, because they leave little room for developing a “mutual understanding.”
Alexb, I would ask that you and I look at my post and its framework together. To my knowledge and credit, I never professed that the animals’ lives were more important than Michael Vick’s life. I never said that Michael Vick doesn’t deserve a second chance in the NFL. In fact, I said the opposite. I even support Jeffrey Lurie in giving Michael Vick a second chance, particularly with the conditions he stated in the press conference.
Although unrelated to my post, you add a very interesting point about the prevalence of domestic violence in the NFL. I think you raise a valid point and I would suggest in your future post(s) that you bring this issue to light.
Thanks again…glad to see you’re writing.
Hi Summer,
I totally agree with you that “it is [and was] not productive [for us] to compare the acts.” Summer, you’re right about the rich and poor distinction, because far too often, as my grandma says (albeit in a very different context), “what’s good for the gander is not good for the goose”, when it should be. What I mean is that rich folks are often labeled as having a disease, whereas poor (often times black and brown) folks are labeled as criminals and vagrants.
The reason for the “you” quotation was due to me not editing properly. At first I was going to quote your statement of “you and others” all throughout the questions, but I realized that might be taken the wrong way. I decided to put “you” because I was writing to you but I wanted to be inclusive of anyone reading this exchange. Also I put “you” because I realized when I read it back to myself that it could be seen as too exacting and that is not my style. I tend to prefer, like you, asking questions to make sure I have an accurate understanding.
Just to assure you of my sincerity, I apologize. I meant no affront.
Hi Summer,
I totally agree with you that “it is [and was] not productive [for us] to compare the acts.” Summer, you’re right about the rich and poor distinction, because far too often, as my grandma says (albeit in a very different context), “what’s good for the gander is not good for the goose”, when it should be. What I mean is that rich folks are often labeled as having a disease, whereas poor (often times black and brown) folks are labeled as criminals and vagrants.
The reason for the “you” quotation was due to me not editing properly. At first I was going to quote your statement of “you and others” all throughout the questions, but I realized that might be taken the wrong way. I decided to put “you” because I was writing to you but I wanted to be inclusive of anyone reading this exchange. Also I put “you” because I realized when I read it back to myself that it could be seen as too exacting and that is not my style. I tend to prefer, like you, asking questions to make sure I have an accurate understanding.
Just to assure you of my sincerity, I apologize. I meant no affront.
In response,
One quick comment:
Sure, we can talk about Michael Vick and his personal case. but what about the profound effect hes had on the community? After being found with evidence of dog fighting and when it hit the news, suddenly the occurrence of dog fighting rings sky rocketed. Some people do sadly believe that it isn’t bad and isn’t a big deal.
In response,
One quick comment:
Sure, we can talk about Michael Vick and his personal case. but what about the profound effect hes had on the community? After being found with evidence of dog fighting and when it hit the news, suddenly the occurrence of dog fighting rings sky rocketed. Some people do sadly believe that it isn’t bad and isn’t a big deal.
I, as well, employ a pit-bull who stands out as the most tender animal I’ve ever owned. Quickly, a fresh dog breed will come along to the media to blast, because they have carried out rotties and dobies in preceding many years. Unfortunate that media sensationalism breeds a lot inaccurate info.
I, as well, employ a pit-bull who stands out as the most tender animal I’ve ever owned. Quickly, a fresh dog breed will come along to the media to blast, because they have carried out rotties and dobies in preceding many years. Unfortunate that media sensationalism breeds a lot inaccurate info.
I personally think that he should donate 50-75 percent of what he makes. Non-celebrity people can support themselves with minimum wage earnings. So I am sure that a few million dollars under his belt can still have him living in a condo somewhere.
I personally think that he should donate 50-75 percent of what he makes. Non-celebrity people can support themselves with minimum wage earnings. So I am sure that a few million dollars under his belt can still have him living in a condo somewhere.
I feel so bad when i see pits or any breed being treated badly. when my small dog had her puppies a few years ago a man came to my house and asked to buy all of them. i asked why he wanted 5 tiny puppies, and his reply was that he wanted to use to them as bait dogs. a bait dog is what they use to let the big dogs kill and get the taste of blood. i refused of course and kept a watchful eye on my pups.
I feel so bad when i see pits or any breed being treated badly. when my small dog had her puppies a few years ago a man came to my house and asked to buy all of them. i asked why he wanted 5 tiny puppies, and his reply was that he wanted to use to them as bait dogs. a bait dog is what they use to let the big dogs kill and get the taste of blood. i refused of course and kept a watchful eye on my pups.
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