Hate The Fags…Just Don’t Kill Them? WTF
They said it would make my life better. They said I would find my “purpose.” It was my 8th grade school year. My pastor said I should read this book that would change my life. The name of the book was A Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. It’s always interesting to reflect back to my pre-teen life and think about the different things I was involved in. Some of my childhood experiences were amazing and shaped who I am today, other experiences—like buying Rick Warren’s book—are just embarrassing. I was reading a book by one of the most divisive and homophobic/anti-gay men in America, at 13.
The author of the very same book, seven years later is now in the limelight being accused of supporting the Uganda Anti-Homosexual Legislation Bill. Proposed on the 13th of October 2009 by Member of Parliament David Bahati, the Bill would criminalize key aspects of comprehensive HIV/AIDS prevention education and imprison health-care workers who refuse to report sexually active gay patients to the police. 
If enacted, it would also broaden the criminalization of homosexuality in Uganda, including introducing the death penalty for HIV positive people who have previous convictions, instituting extradition for those engaging in same-sex sexual relations outside Uganda, and penalizing individuals, companies, or media organizations who support LGBT rights.
Right when you think your out of oppression, there always seems to be something that tends to pull you right back into it. This is nothing less than a gay-genocide and I wish our government (democrats and especially republicans) would stop being so inactive when it comes to fighting for LGBT rights within our country and around the world. Personally, I’m still waiting on “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” to be overturned. I mean really, is this American or not, but I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that the home of the “some are free, and maybe brave” continues to marginalize and stay silent with the oppression of others. I do have to give some credit to the Obama administration; they put out this statement last month (2 months after the bill was introduced):
“We urge to ensure that sexual orientation or gender identity may under no circumstances be the basis for criminal penalties– in particular, execution, arrest or detention. If adopted a bill further criminalizing homosexuality would constitute a significant step backwards for the protection of human rights in Uganda.”
One of the major supporters of this bill in Uganda is minister Martin Ssempa, who has been to Rick Warren’s Church several times. Rick Warren tried to ignore the issue for a couple months until he recently put out a video and went on record condemning the Ugandans for their gay-genocide bill. Conservative pastors all across the country have gotten themselves into some trouble on this one. Even when Rick Warren desperately tried to clear his name by sending a video to Ugandan pastors criticizing the bill, he still feels the need to emphasize his belief that marriage should only be between one man and one woman. Teachings like this are exactly what fuel what David Bahati calls the 95% disapproval rate of homosexuality in Uganda.
More pastors around the country are almost forced to condemn the Ugandans legislation. But every time I read a story like this, I feel the pastor basically saying that “we have taught you to hate these gay people, but lets not go and kill them, lets just try to change them.” All in all I think conservative pastors have been at the backbone of religion in Uganda for quite sometime, and consciously or not, they have some ownership over the anti-homosexuality bill.
On the other side it is of course a bill directly proposed by a Ugandan politician.
“And if you’re a Ugandan politician, would you rather be talking about the rebel uprising and child soldiers, the fact that you’re stealing most of the aid money, the looming environmental disaster, or how you’re protecting the country from the gay? Add in a bit of rick warren and other Christian fundamentalist influence at the point of a bayonet and it’s pretty easy to see how this came about.”
In the mean time, here is my prayer…God help us, these conservatives are getting ridiculous!
Astounding post Jon! Oh, the things human beings on this earth are willing to do to “protect” their “morals”. Dismiss me as silly but was it not God’s Son himself who taught us “he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone”? I mean, really, where do people like Rick Warren, Ugandan politicians, George Bush, and our “all loving” Baptist pastors next door get the audacity?!
It seems to me that by 2010, the world would be leaning more towards an air of acceptance as opposed to this big charade, which denies the validity of genuine homosexual unions. But no, America is still slapping gays on the wrist warning them to hurry up and come out of this “phase” they’re going through or no salvation for them!
As with all tales of subjugation of people for whatever reason, there will come progress but it has to happen as a result of people speaking up and calling these hypocrites out! A good question to keep in mind: “How does one expect freedom when they are not willing to give freedom” How can you be a righteous individual when you persecute your neighbor? We cannot be selective about who we allow rights.
Astounding post Jon! Oh, the things human beings on this earth are willing to do to “protect” their “morals”. Dismiss me as silly but was it not God’s Son himself who taught us “he who has not sinned shall cast the first stone”? I mean, really, where do people like Rick Warren, Ugandan politicians, George Bush, and our “all loving” Baptist pastors next door get the audacity?!
It seems to me that by 2010, the world would be leaning more towards an air of acceptance as opposed to this big charade, which denies the validity of genuine homosexual unions. But no, America is still slapping gays on the wrist warning them to hurry up and come out of this “phase” they’re going through or no salvation for them!
As with all tales of subjugation of people for whatever reason, there will come progress but it has to happen as a result of people speaking up and calling these hypocrites out! A good question to keep in mind: “How does one expect freedom when they are not willing to give freedom” How can you be a righteous individual when you persecute your neighbor? We cannot be selective about who we allow rights.
Thank you for your comment Johnae. You make a very good point, many people fail to understand that injustice for anyone, threatens the justice of everyone (MLK quote). hopefully people will learn from the past, before we’re all too late…and we know where that road leads. We see the after effects of things like the holocaust, rwanda, and apartheid.
Thank you for your comment Johnae. You make a very good point, many people fail to understand that injustice for anyone, threatens the justice of everyone (MLK quote). hopefully people will learn from the past, before we’re all too late…and we know where that road leads. We see the after effects of things like the holocaust, rwanda, and apartheid.
This is definitely heavy topic. I don’t know the HIV/AIDS rate in Uganda but the American government freaked out in the 80’s when AIDS became a huge issue. It’s actually shocking, because something to this effect (yet vastly different) was brought up in American legislation and the courts. If you look at Bowers v. Hardwick (1986) the Supreme court actually held same sex sex illegal, as in the the people who were caught in the act of same sex sex in the privacy of a home received charges for the act. However, in 2003 this decision was overturned by another case that came up in Texas. 2003 wasn’t that long ago, which what makes it really jaw dropping. Thus, I think it’s hard for the American government to step in to world LGBTQ issues when American LGBTQ issues are still going on/ slowly progressing,
And in regards to the Ugandan pastors. I think it’s conflicting to them. You basically said yourself that they hold political influence. So they have to straddle the fence with the anti-homosexual sentiments and at the same time stand out against the attempt of legalizing the killing of many of LGBTQ community members in order to please a different range of people.
This is definitely heavy topic. I don’t know the HIV/AIDS rate in Uganda but the American government freaked out in the 80’s when AIDS became a huge issue. It’s actually shocking, because something to this effect (yet vastly different) was brought up in American legislation and the courts. If you look at Bowers v. Hardwick (1986) the Supreme court actually held same sex sex illegal, as in the the people who were caught in the act of same sex sex in the privacy of a home received charges for the act. However, in 2003 this decision was overturned by another case that came up in Texas. 2003 wasn’t that long ago, which what makes it really jaw dropping. Thus, I think it’s hard for the American government to step in to world LGBTQ issues when American LGBTQ issues are still going on/ slowly progressing,
And in regards to the Ugandan pastors. I think it’s conflicting to them. You basically said yourself that they hold political influence. So they have to straddle the fence with the anti-homosexual sentiments and at the same time stand out against the attempt of legalizing the killing of many of LGBTQ community members in order to please a different range of people.
wow, Ian thx for the knowledge. I was vaguely familiar with the laws in the United States, but i didn’t realize it was this tragic.
One thing we all know is that the LGBT issues in United States in still on the forefront and priority list of issues in American’s need to do list.
wow, Ian thx for the knowledge. I was vaguely familiar with the laws in the United States, but i didn’t realize it was this tragic.
One thing we all know is that the LGBT issues in United States in still on the forefront and priority list of issues in American’s need to do list.
this is crazy Jrock u always keep my eyes open but this genocide thing hasnt the world done enough killing hell we need to give every last person who signed that bill a big peace of wood to there again jrock thanks for the info
this is crazy Jrock u always keep my eyes open but this genocide thing hasnt the world done enough killing hell we need to give every last person who signed that bill a big peace of wood to there again jrock thanks for the info
Wow! It’s amazing,to me, how easy it is for people to take it upon themselves to decide if another human being’s life is worth living. I think it is very important for the pastors to keep in mind the bible verse in Matthew that says ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged”.
I agree with Ian, in that, the US needs to deal with LGBT issues here. However, that does not mean that it is okay for our government to sit back and watch this genocide take place.
Wow! It’s amazing,to me, how easy it is for people to take it upon themselves to decide if another human being’s life is worth living. I think it is very important for the pastors to keep in mind the bible verse in Matthew that says ‘Judge not, lest ye be judged”.
I agree with Ian, in that, the US needs to deal with LGBT issues here. However, that does not mean that it is okay for our government to sit back and watch this genocide take place.
Jessica, I agree. I think people far too many times have turned away from the face of justice, and stopped caring about the simple human and alienable rights of all people.
Matt, thx for your thoughts…lol I guess my name is Jrock now
Jessica, I agree. I think people far too many times have turned away from the face of justice, and stopped caring about the simple human and alienable rights of all people.
Matt, thx for your thoughts…lol I guess my name is Jrock now
Now…most times i attempt to approach the subject of the crimlization of homosexuals with patience, I honestly was not blessed with. This response will be as unbiased as a young african american lesbians viewpoint can be considering the topic at hand. Its wrong, so are alot of things, Ive grasped that in the short 19 years Ive been living, what I dont understand is why refuse to correct the injustices the world presents. Homosexuality has replaced ethnicity relations as the elephant on our planet everyone is trying to ignore. We look the other way, and try to justify or lack of action. I believe everyone is intitled to their opinon, I have no problem with those who have it set in their heart that homosexuality is wrong, none whatsover, my problem lies with those who insist on imposing their views on others. I dont paticuarly care for alot of things, the dealth penalty for instance which harms people, those who die and those who are left behind, or pedophiles that rape young boys and girls alike and leave them confused and flusterd and hurt…I dont cafre for things that harm others…Love isint harming anyone other than those being unloved. It is not time to stop having opionons, its time to stop forcing them down the throughts of everyone you see. Uganda is filled with lgbt community members, so is Great Brittan, Welsh, Austrailla, China…we are not merely sitcom co stars, we are people. Human beings. Our nasture is to exrocize what we dont understand or agree with…i was watching a documetary on animal planet…one zebra got dirty and therefore his strips were undistinguashable…he stood out, and the rest of the zebras (typically peacefull animals) killed him. The same is true with the mockingbird, if one falls out of line he is killed. It is nature. It is sad. We can change though, because thats in nature to. What im saying is this Jrev, as your bestfriend i have all the faith in you in the world…youre going to change things, do it soon, history keeps repeating itself, because no one is listening…Yell Jon they can hear you.
Now…most times i attempt to approach the subject of the crimlization of homosexuals with patience, I honestly was not blessed with. This response will be as unbiased as a young african american lesbians viewpoint can be considering the topic at hand. Its wrong, so are alot of things, Ive grasped that in the short 19 years Ive been living, what I dont understand is why refuse to correct the injustices the world presents. Homosexuality has replaced ethnicity relations as the elephant on our planet everyone is trying to ignore. We look the other way, and try to justify or lack of action. I believe everyone is intitled to their opinon, I have no problem with those who have it set in their heart that homosexuality is wrong, none whatsover, my problem lies with those who insist on imposing their views on others. I dont paticuarly care for alot of things, the dealth penalty for instance which harms people, those who die and those who are left behind, or pedophiles that rape young boys and girls alike and leave them confused and flusterd and hurt…I dont cafre for things that harm others…Love isint harming anyone other than those being unloved. It is not time to stop having opionons, its time to stop forcing them down the throughts of everyone you see. Uganda is filled with lgbt community members, so is Great Brittan, Welsh, Austrailla, China…we are not merely sitcom co stars, we are people. Human beings. Our nasture is to exrocize what we dont understand or agree with…i was watching a documetary on animal planet…one zebra got dirty and therefore his strips were undistinguashable…he stood out, and the rest of the zebras (typically peacefull animals) killed him. The same is true with the mockingbird, if one falls out of line he is killed. It is nature. It is sad. We can change though, because thats in nature to. What im saying is this Jrev, as your bestfriend i have all the faith in you in the world…youre going to change things, do it soon, history keeps repeating itself, because no one is listening…Yell Jon they can hear you.
This is probably my favorite post yet, Jonathan. The extremely homophobic setting of many, if not most, predominantly black countries has always bothered me. The fact that the Ugandan government is now placing their homophobic beliefs not only above more pertinent issues, but also at the forefront of discussion, gives the impression that not only is the anti-gay sentiment frighteningly strong, but also that the shame, that should result from this sort of sentiment, is nearly non-existent. I sincerely hope this bill receives much more attention before it is too late.
This is probably my favorite post yet, Jonathan. The extremely homophobic setting of many, if not most, predominantly black countries has always bothered me. The fact that the Ugandan government is now placing their homophobic beliefs not only above more pertinent issues, but also at the forefront of discussion, gives the impression that not only is the anti-gay sentiment frighteningly strong, but also that the shame, that should result from this sort of sentiment, is nearly non-existent. I sincerely hope this bill receives much more attention before it is too late.
Siaara, you never cease to amaze me with you creative writing skill. We are in a place, on a website, inside a moment in reality, where we all can began to organize and make some noise for the injustices of this world. It is our time, it is our world, but we must take ownership over the future that we have to live in. Lets make noise…
Christine, I also hope that this bill receives more attention. over the past couple months, many countries and the U.N. has renounced Uganda for this bill and declared that it will be a step back for human rights if it passes. but there is no doubt that more needs to be done.
Siaara, you never cease to amaze me with you creative writing skill. We are in a place, on a website, inside a moment in reality, where we all can began to organize and make some noise for the injustices of this world. It is our time, it is our world, but we must take ownership over the future that we have to live in. Lets make noise…
Christine, I also hope that this bill receives more attention. over the past couple months, many countries and the U.N. has renounced Uganda for this bill and declared that it will be a step back for human rights if it passes. but there is no doubt that more needs to be done.
Jonathan,
Great post. The more attention that people like yourself bring to these types of issues, the better. And, your writing is clear, precise and powerful. Keep up the good work.
Jonathan,
Great post. The more attention that people like yourself bring to these types of issues, the better. And, your writing is clear, precise and powerful. Keep up the good work.
Very insightful Jonathan. I’m wondering what this means for the way the US approaches other countries in terms of human rights. The US has a terrible track record and it would be a disaster if the US started telling other countries how to show love for the gays.
Very insightful Jonathan. I’m wondering what this means for the way the US approaches other countries in terms of human rights. The US has a terrible track record and it would be a disaster if the US started telling other countries how to show love for the gays.
I do agree with Ms. Freeman however, I believe the LGBT communities around the world need to stand up & make a noise. We hold the power to change. We can’t sit back & wait for others to give us our rights or acknowledge us. If we want change our communities need to uplift ourselves into positions of powers. We NEED to unit and support one another. We have to be the change we want. We have to pressure/influence our politicians to initiate the changes that we want seen. The power is in our hands & the time for change is now AND lets make a noise they can’t ignore.
I do agree with Ms. Freeman however, I believe the LGBT communities around the world need to stand up & make a noise. We hold the power to change. We can’t sit back & wait for others to give us our rights or acknowledge us. If we want change our communities need to uplift ourselves into positions of powers. We NEED to unit and support one another. We have to be the change we want. We have to pressure/influence our politicians to initiate the changes that we want seen. The power is in our hands & the time for change is now AND lets make a noise they can’t ignore.
John this is an amazingly insightful post which I feel would be an extrme eye opener for all of the legislators, pastors and people who support this very bigoted way of thinking.
Here is my thought…
Whatever a person belives is their right! The right to freedom of speech and to do what we as individuals feel is best is a right that we continue to this day to fight and lose our lives to defend, who are we to tell anyone that that right to free speech does not apply to them?
To the lesilators and law makers….
No one has the right to tell someone that how they feel is wrong! Just like a person has the right to like someone either of the same or oposite sex we also have the right to disagree. No ones rights should infringe on anothers.
To the Pastors and teachers….
I am no bible scholar or master of religion, but one thing I know of all of the major religions is they teach of love and acceptance. Again this does not mean that you or anyone has to agree or disagree with the decisions others may make but at the end of the day it is their decision and the only one that will have to live with the repercussions.
Our lessons…
We as people in general need to learn how to mind our own buisness! We need to take a self inventory of what is wrong with ourselves. If we did this we would have to much of our own garbage to clean up that we would not have to worry about the sexual orientation of somone else who is not harming us.
in closing…
Since we want to use the bible to support our biases, allow me to do the same:
Matthew 7:5 ” Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.”
Simply put, get your house in order before telling me about mine.
Sorry for the lenghth John.
John this is an amazingly insightful post which I feel would be an extrme eye opener for all of the legislators, pastors and people who support this very bigoted way of thinking.
Here is my thought…
Whatever a person belives is their right! The right to freedom of speech and to do what we as individuals feel is best is a right that we continue to this day to fight and lose our lives to defend, who are we to tell anyone that that right to free speech does not apply to them?
To the lesilators and law makers….
No one has the right to tell someone that how they feel is wrong! Just like a person has the right to like someone either of the same or oposite sex we also have the right to disagree. No ones rights should infringe on anothers.
To the Pastors and teachers….
I am no bible scholar or master of religion, but one thing I know of all of the major religions is they teach of love and acceptance. Again this does not mean that you or anyone has to agree or disagree with the decisions others may make but at the end of the day it is their decision and the only one that will have to live with the repercussions.
Our lessons…
We as people in general need to learn how to mind our own buisness! We need to take a self inventory of what is wrong with ourselves. If we did this we would have to much of our own garbage to clean up that we would not have to worry about the sexual orientation of somone else who is not harming us.
in closing…
Since we want to use the bible to support our biases, allow me to do the same:
Matthew 7:5 ” Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye.”
Simply put, get your house in order before telling me about mine.
Sorry for the lenghth John.
MORTIFIED!!! I WANT TO FIRST SAY, IT KILLS ME WHEN ANOTHER TRIES TO PASS JUDGEMENT ON THE LGBT COMMUNITY. THROUGH OUT LIFE I HAVE LEARNED SO MANY THINGS FROM SOME MANY PEOPLE, BUT THE MORE IMPORTANT WAS TO LIVE YOU’RE LIFE AS YOU AND NEVER LET ANYONE CHANGE THE PERSON YOU ARE. THIS WORLD IS FULL OF NEGATIVE, MISLEADING, JUDGEMENTAL PEOPLE AND ALL WE CAN DO IS LIVE LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.
MORTIFIED!!! I WANT TO FIRST SAY, IT KILLS ME WHEN ANOTHER TRIES TO PASS JUDGEMENT ON THE LGBT COMMUNITY. THROUGH OUT LIFE I HAVE LEARNED SO MANY THINGS FROM SOME MANY PEOPLE, BUT THE MORE IMPORTANT WAS TO LIVE YOU’RE LIFE AS YOU AND NEVER LET ANYONE CHANGE THE PERSON YOU ARE. THIS WORLD IS FULL OF NEGATIVE, MISLEADING, JUDGEMENTAL PEOPLE AND ALL WE CAN DO IS LIVE LIFE AS WE KNOW IT.
Chris, no problem for the length, I love long comments. and this subject lends itself to say A LOT. I love how you quote the bible, it so amazing to see hypocrites in the name of “whatever” use their beliefs to kill others.
Calvin: you right, lets make some noise..lol
Dakota: the USA does have an ugly history of handling foreign affairs in the worse ways. I am glad that the Obama administration said something, but i personally do not think it was enough.
Justin: I agree 100%, all we can do is live life the best way we know how, and not thru the judgements of anyone else. I went thru that stage of my sexuality, and its no way to live.
Chris, no problem for the length, I love long comments. and this subject lends itself to say A LOT. I love how you quote the bible, it so amazing to see hypocrites in the name of “whatever” use their beliefs to kill others.
Calvin: you right, lets make some noise..lol
Dakota: the USA does have an ugly history of handling foreign affairs in the worse ways. I am glad that the Obama administration said something, but i personally do not think it was enough.
Justin: I agree 100%, all we can do is live life the best way we know how, and not thru the judgements of anyone else. I went thru that stage of my sexuality, and its no way to live.
“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit…one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all, who is over all and through all in all.” (James 4:3-5)
“Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, this is Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” (James 4:15-16)
It’s aggravatingly convenient that the church continues to use God to enforce notions of disunion and hatred. When our God promotes nothing but peace and unity in all things. You talk about how conservative pastors have in part ownership of this bill, and that is very correct. For we all exist in the body of Christ, and are all appointed by him to do the works he has commanded of us. We are connected to one another by Christ, and our union should be one of peace and love. Spreading hate does nothing but infect other unions in Christ, and begets more hate in this union.
Speaking from a religious point of view (the same that many of these anti-gay pastors claim), our God is one of nothing but love, and I trust that he will use activists, proper legislators, and real people of faith to accomplish this love that is REALLY of God. Our God is one of ALL people, and these so-called pastors better quickly understand that.
“Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit…one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all, who is over all and through all in all.” (James 4:3-5)
“Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, this is Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.” (James 4:15-16)
It’s aggravatingly convenient that the church continues to use God to enforce notions of disunion and hatred. When our God promotes nothing but peace and unity in all things. You talk about how conservative pastors have in part ownership of this bill, and that is very correct. For we all exist in the body of Christ, and are all appointed by him to do the works he has commanded of us. We are connected to one another by Christ, and our union should be one of peace and love. Spreading hate does nothing but infect other unions in Christ, and begets more hate in this union.
Speaking from a religious point of view (the same that many of these anti-gay pastors claim), our God is one of nothing but love, and I trust that he will use activists, proper legislators, and real people of faith to accomplish this love that is REALLY of God. Our God is one of ALL people, and these so-called pastors better quickly understand that.
Jon impressive post, however the situation discussed does not surprise me at all. Across the Dark content homophobic ideologies are a common reality. South Africa is the exception with some of the most progressive laws in the world in regards to the protection of human rights based on sexual orientation. In 2010 regions throughout the world remain homophobic. In many cases the root of this homophobia stems from religion. Rick Warren’s stance on the situation is also not one of surprise. As a member of the Christian Right, one could arrive at the conclusion that he would be a supporter of the “traditional” interpretation of marriage, as well as a supporter for “Gay Reform”, making gays straight. One must question when the day will arrive where people’s race, sex, and gender, will become minute factors in the characterization of an individual.
Jon impressive post, however the situation discussed does not surprise me at all. Across the Dark content homophobic ideologies are a common reality. South Africa is the exception with some of the most progressive laws in the world in regards to the protection of human rights based on sexual orientation. In 2010 regions throughout the world remain homophobic. In many cases the root of this homophobia stems from religion. Rick Warren’s stance on the situation is also not one of surprise. As a member of the Christian Right, one could arrive at the conclusion that he would be a supporter of the “traditional” interpretation of marriage, as well as a supporter for “Gay Reform”, making gays straight. One must question when the day will arrive where people’s race, sex, and gender, will become minute factors in the characterization of an individual.
I don’t think things like this will ever change. We will always have narrow-minded in this world. All there is to do is hope for change cause this is crazy.
I don’t think things like this will ever change. We will always have narrow-minded in this world. All there is to do is hope for change cause this is crazy.
Aaron, Thank you for bringing the bible into this discussion. I love the term you use “aggravatingly convenient” it slams the hammer on the head of the nail to describe what religious leaders are doing both here in the states and what they have influenced in Uganda.
Henry: I know this is nothing new in the religious sectors (as far as believing in the “traditional family” and “gay reform” but every time i see something like this it surprises the hell out of me. I can not get use to it, and don’t want to.
Aaron, Thank you for bringing the bible into this discussion. I love the term you use “aggravatingly convenient” it slams the hammer on the head of the nail to describe what religious leaders are doing both here in the states and what they have influenced in Uganda.
Henry: I know this is nothing new in the religious sectors (as far as believing in the “traditional family” and “gay reform” but every time i see something like this it surprises the hell out of me. I can not get use to it, and don’t want to.
Impressive post, Jon. But, as usual, I’ve got to through a big ‘ole branch in the middle.
Have we forgotten that our morals may not be the best? Now, I’m not speaking from my own personal perspective or belief. And I’m not at all condoning this bill or its ramifications. However, Americans (or people in general) have a tendency create a hierarchy among moral standards, which often places their own moral standing as the most correct or noble. Pushing this idea furthering: what are the moral “no-nos” that touch every corner of the globe? If the Ugandian culture doesn’t condone such homosexual actions, why must Americans tell them they are wrong? Are Americans the moral police of the world? And what does it mean when universal values shift (or evolve) and combat with the present ones. Crime and Punishment by Foucault gives great insight into this type of problem. In discussing world topics such as this one, it helps to think: “What does outside interference do to the heterosexual, seemingly “unaffected” population of Uganda? Does that interference undercut that culture’s beliefs?”
Personally, as a Black, homosexual, American male, I find this proposed bill to be devastating and depressing. I do not believe there should ever be a proposal that condones genocide. I’m aware that others may respectfully disagree. In all, part of your last line is perfect. “God help us.”
Impressive post, Jon. But, as usual, I’ve got to through a big ‘ole branch in the middle.
Have we forgotten that our morals may not be the best? Now, I’m not speaking from my own personal perspective or belief. And I’m not at all condoning this bill or its ramifications. However, Americans (or people in general) have a tendency create a hierarchy among moral standards, which often places their own moral standing as the most correct or noble. Pushing this idea furthering: what are the moral “no-nos” that touch every corner of the globe? If the Ugandian culture doesn’t condone such homosexual actions, why must Americans tell them they are wrong? Are Americans the moral police of the world? And what does it mean when universal values shift (or evolve) and combat with the present ones. Crime and Punishment by Foucault gives great insight into this type of problem. In discussing world topics such as this one, it helps to think: “What does outside interference do to the heterosexual, seemingly “unaffected” population of Uganda? Does that interference undercut that culture’s beliefs?”
Personally, as a Black, homosexual, American male, I find this proposed bill to be devastating and depressing. I do not believe there should ever be a proposal that condones genocide. I’m aware that others may respectfully disagree. In all, part of your last line is perfect. “God help us.”
*throw… hehe
*further
*throw… hehe
*further
Thank you Jonanthan for this blog. This is a very heavy topic everywhere but is treated differently everywhere also. Many people today seem to blindside from the right from wrong with the justifidable to the unjustice down to certain people because of being gay. I do believe that a positive change will come in time but how much longer will we have to wait? Hopefully not to long because with this type of injustice in societies today, we as people will never grow to a peaceful world where everyone is treated equally.
Thank you Jonanthan for this blog. This is a very heavy topic everywhere but is treated differently everywhere also. Many people today seem to blindside from the right from wrong with the justifidable to the unjustice down to certain people because of being gay. I do believe that a positive change will come in time but how much longer will we have to wait? Hopefully not to long because with this type of injustice in societies today, we as people will never grow to a peaceful world where everyone is treated equally.
Such a great topic to touch on. I actually have a friend from Uganda, and he was disowned by his parents for being homosexual. We spoke and he told me about all of the drama he went through. I feel in this society, its every man for themself, no one loves the other unless they know them. If we as people take the time to love and accept others instead of judge, issues like this would never occur. We need to step out of our comfort zone , look at the big picture, and realize one thing we all have in common, and that is, RIGHT. WE all have the RIGHT to live and be whoever we want to be, we have the RIGHT to make our own decisions. No one has place, besides God to judge for what you feel your RIGHT is. Killing someone or punishing them for choosing to be gay, is ridiculous. I feel if they were to switch the picture around, and ask themself, would I want to be punished or killed? just for living my life like I want to, and being happy. It is then they will realize their fault and hopefully change.It’s funny……. people can condone things far worse like abortion,but let them see two men or two women together, and its the biggest problem of all. Truly, are we putting our energy where it needs to be? WE need to stop making decisions based on personal feeling but more so based on something we learned at a very young age. Right from wrong. IT is right for one to love , feel, and live like they want, but wrong to be killed, punished or tormented for it.
Such a great topic to touch on. I actually have a friend from Uganda, and he was disowned by his parents for being homosexual. We spoke and he told me about all of the drama he went through. I feel in this society, its every man for themself, no one loves the other unless they know them. If we as people take the time to love and accept others instead of judge, issues like this would never occur. We need to step out of our comfort zone , look at the big picture, and realize one thing we all have in common, and that is, RIGHT. WE all have the RIGHT to live and be whoever we want to be, we have the RIGHT to make our own decisions. No one has place, besides God to judge for what you feel your RIGHT is. Killing someone or punishing them for choosing to be gay, is ridiculous. I feel if they were to switch the picture around, and ask themself, would I want to be punished or killed? just for living my life like I want to, and being happy. It is then they will realize their fault and hopefully change.It’s funny……. people can condone things far worse like abortion,but let them see two men or two women together, and its the biggest problem of all. Truly, are we putting our energy where it needs to be? WE need to stop making decisions based on personal feeling but more so based on something we learned at a very young age. Right from wrong. IT is right for one to love , feel, and live like they want, but wrong to be killed, punished or tormented for it.
Hi Jonathan,
I was truly blown away by the masterful work you did weaving the interconnected nature of the UNIVERSAL struggle of the LGBTQ communities both here and abroad, especially when dealing with the bigotry masked in religious zealots’ words and deeds. U raised critical important facts about the way in which oppression is meted out against the oppressed.
Now for how I feel as a human being:
I think it is freaking UPSETING to see the government of Uganda sell out its on people for values (read: religion(s)) that were forced on it by the west (read: non-descript white countries of Europe). I personally hate the influences that individuals of the west (regardless of their political leanings) have on these countries. I am still upset about comments made by Americans like Madonna and Barack Obama. On October 2009, Madonna at the ground turning of her school in Malawi felt the need to tell a whole community of (AFRICAN) folks that they shouldn’t expect her to do all the work of helping them, WTF!!!! I especially was UPSET when the USA black president indicts all of Africa to stop “harping on past injustices.” Although, I understand the underlying messages, I still think there is a level of respect with which these Americans are not approaching other sovereign nations.
These examples show just how far western individuals can trample on developing countries’ people and their lived experiences. What is even more depressing is that this trampling can enable mass wrong doing like the acts of intolerance being enacted today in Uganda.
Hi Jonathan,
I was truly blown away by the masterful work you did weaving the interconnected nature of the UNIVERSAL struggle of the LGBTQ communities both here and abroad, especially when dealing with the bigotry masked in religious zealots’ words and deeds. U raised critical important facts about the way in which oppression is meted out against the oppressed.
Now for how I feel as a human being:
I think it is freaking UPSETING to see the government of Uganda sell out its on people for values (read: religion(s)) that were forced on it by the west (read: non-descript white countries of Europe). I personally hate the influences that individuals of the west (regardless of their political leanings) have on these countries. I am still upset about comments made by Americans like Madonna and Barack Obama. On October 2009, Madonna at the ground turning of her school in Malawi felt the need to tell a whole community of (AFRICAN) folks that they shouldn’t expect her to do all the work of helping them, WTF!!!! I especially was UPSET when the USA black president indicts all of Africa to stop “harping on past injustices.” Although, I understand the underlying messages, I still think there is a level of respect with which these Americans are not approaching other sovereign nations.
These examples show just how far western individuals can trample on developing countries’ people and their lived experiences. What is even more depressing is that this trampling can enable mass wrong doing like the acts of intolerance being enacted today in Uganda.
Terrence: thank you for what you call the “big ole branch”…there are so many different angles to look at this issue from. I think we as Americans need to always be cautious when forcing out morals onto other people, which both liberals and conservatives have done in the past when it comes to foreign relations. However, I think in this particular case, it was the American pastors that took part in influencing their religion on many of the Uganda pastors, even to the point, where Rick Warren himself had to send a video directly to the pastors explaining why its wrong to kill the gays.
Supernerd: Once again you find a point that could be elaborated on for a second blog. I think it is very important to look at how the “western individuals” kinda look down on developing countries. I wasn’t aware of the disrespectful (at least) statement that Madonna made. In some situations even when trying to help, they insult the very same people they’re trying to support.
Terrence: thank you for what you call the “big ole branch”…there are so many different angles to look at this issue from. I think we as Americans need to always be cautious when forcing out morals onto other people, which both liberals and conservatives have done in the past when it comes to foreign relations. However, I think in this particular case, it was the American pastors that took part in influencing their religion on many of the Uganda pastors, even to the point, where Rick Warren himself had to send a video directly to the pastors explaining why its wrong to kill the gays.
Supernerd: Once again you find a point that could be elaborated on for a second blog. I think it is very important to look at how the “western individuals” kinda look down on developing countries. I wasn’t aware of the disrespectful (at least) statement that Madonna made. In some situations even when trying to help, they insult the very same people they’re trying to support.
I find this quite interesting, that the first time I hear about this is through your blog (Shame on American Media); this should be publicized throughout America. I guess after reading this i feel a great since of pain. I also began to ask a load of questions. I wonder how many if any other countries in Africa are doing the same practices. Does anyone know if there are any organizations that fight for rights of people in other countries, to put pressure on our government to make a stance on this injustice? Thanks for the post.
I find this quite interesting, that the first time I hear about this is through your blog (Shame on American Media); this should be publicized throughout America. I guess after reading this i feel a great since of pain. I also began to ask a load of questions. I wonder how many if any other countries in Africa are doing the same practices. Does anyone know if there are any organizations that fight for rights of people in other countries, to put pressure on our government to make a stance on this injustice? Thanks for the post.
@ the Rye
HRW Human Rights Watch
Amnesty International
are the two biggest international Human Rights Watch Dog groups.
@ the Rye
HRW Human Rights Watch
Amnesty International
are the two biggest international Human Rights Watch Dog groups.
Jonathan,
I write to you having suffered significant ridicule within and excommunication from many of the conservative Christian circles that I once very fondly called home. I have been labeled a liberal, post-modern heretic by some of my dearest friends because I refused to accept the traditional Christian stance on many issues when I felt those positions were dishonest and ignorant. That having been said, I was wondering if there was room in this comment section for a friendly heterosexual and devoutly religious voice. I imagine that my views are dramatically different from most of the people who have posted here, and I do not want to be divisive in the least. I respect the passion and conviction of the many voices represented in the comments I have read, and I pray, for what it is worth, that men and women everywhere will rise above themselves in pursuit of a more holistic good, wanting nothing but the greatest good for all of mankind.
While I intend only to add encouragement to this discussion, and an apology on behalf of the Church for the truly abominable things that have been and are continuing to be done in the name of God, I fear that I may unintentionally offend simply by being myself. With your consent, I would like to offer my opinion and my condolences to this string of input– perhaps a short rant about how culturally destructive it can be when religion and politics give birth to a government enforced morality–but I will refrain from writing more until I hear from you.
I do miss you terribly Jonathan, and as you have been awarded a great deal of praise already for you masterful and passionate writing, let me say the same. Truly, well spoken my old friend.
Jonathan,
I write to you having suffered significant ridicule within and excommunication from many of the conservative Christian circles that I once very fondly called home. I have been labeled a liberal, post-modern heretic by some of my dearest friends because I refused to accept the traditional Christian stance on many issues when I felt those positions were dishonest and ignorant. That having been said, I was wondering if there was room in this comment section for a friendly heterosexual and devoutly religious voice. I imagine that my views are dramatically different from most of the people who have posted here, and I do not want to be divisive in the least. I respect the passion and conviction of the many voices represented in the comments I have read, and I pray, for what it is worth, that men and women everywhere will rise above themselves in pursuit of a more holistic good, wanting nothing but the greatest good for all of mankind.
While I intend only to add encouragement to this discussion, and an apology on behalf of the Church for the truly abominable things that have been and are continuing to be done in the name of God, I fear that I may unintentionally offend simply by being myself. With your consent, I would like to offer my opinion and my condolences to this string of input– perhaps a short rant about how culturally destructive it can be when religion and politics give birth to a government enforced morality–but I will refrain from writing more until I hear from you.
I do miss you terribly Jonathan, and as you have been awarded a great deal of praise already for you masterful and passionate writing, let me say the same. Truly, well spoken my old friend.
Tony,
Your definitely more than welcome on this site and on any blog I write. It is great to hear from you, and please feel free to rant and share any opinion you have. I still respect your words more than most I have encountered in my soon to be 20 years of life.
Tony,
Your definitely more than welcome on this site and on any blog I write. It is great to hear from you, and please feel free to rant and share any opinion you have. I still respect your words more than most I have encountered in my soon to be 20 years of life.
Jonathan, thanks for this informative and thought-provoking post! I’ve read most of the comments and I think you’ve started a great discussion. To add to the discussion that The RYE and Supernerd initiated concerning organizations that apply pressure on domestic and foreign governments to protect human rights…I think this is a great strategy. Regardless of whether a country has/doesn’t have a separation of church and state, I personally refuse to promote any side of a religious dialogue on LGBT rights. I suppose this is largely because I’m not invested in any particular “faith-insured” protection of rights. I think it’s more important to hold governments accountable to the ‘good’ laws and policies shaped by their courts and legislatures (where applicable, of course). Now when laws and policies aren’t so good, it is the responsibility of discontent citizens and global allies to repeal/reform them. The U.N. Human Rights Council’s Universal Periodic Review (UPR) is one such mechanism through which organizations like HRW, Amnesty International, etc. can raise the profile of this issue and shame the government into doing the right thing, especially by comparing Uganda to so-called peer democracies (e.g., South Africa). Although, Ian, I hear ya…it’s hard to play the “shame game” when so many countries (including the U.S.) are failing their own citizens on LGBT issues. Uganda’s UPR is coming up next year, which gives these organizations and members of civil society more than enough time to not only document the human rights abuses taking place, but offer concrete solutions to the problem. Of course, the U.N. (in my opinion) has no real “power” in the world, but I’m starting to think it’s a semi-decent, high-level way of creating an affirmative ‘obligation’ for governments to do better by their people, especially where human rights treaty bodies are concerned.
Jonathan, thanks for this informative and thought-provoking post! I’ve read most of the comments and I think you’ve started a great discussion. To add to the discussion that The RYE and Supernerd initiated concerning organizations that apply pressure on domestic and foreign governments to protect human rights…I think this is a great strategy. Regardless of whether a country has/doesn’t have a separation of church and state, I personally refuse to promote any side of a religious dialogue on LGBT rights. I suppose this is largely because I’m not invested in any particular “faith-insured” protection of rights. I think it’s more important to hold governments accountable to the ‘good’ laws and policies shaped by their courts and legislatures (where applicable, of course). Now when laws and policies aren’t so good, it is the responsibility of discontent citizens and global allies to repeal/reform them. The U.N. Human Rights Council’s Universal Periodic Review (UPR) is one such mechanism through which organizations like HRW, Amnesty International, etc. can raise the profile of this issue and shame the government into doing the right thing, especially by comparing Uganda to so-called peer democracies (e.g., South Africa). Although, Ian, I hear ya…it’s hard to play the “shame game” when so many countries (including the U.S.) are failing their own citizens on LGBT issues. Uganda’s UPR is coming up next year, which gives these organizations and members of civil society more than enough time to not only document the human rights abuses taking place, but offer concrete solutions to the problem. Of course, the U.N. (in my opinion) has no real “power” in the world, but I’m starting to think it’s a semi-decent, high-level way of creating an affirmative ‘obligation’ for governments to do better by their people, especially where human rights treaty bodies are concerned.
I tried to hyperlink to the UPR, but I guess it failed. To learn more about it (and U.N. human rights treaties) check out this website: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/UPR/Pages/UPRMain.aspx
I tried to hyperlink to the UPR, but I guess it failed. To learn more about it (and U.N. human rights treaties) check out this website: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/UPR/Pages/UPRMain.aspx
Wow.! What a very interesting and insightful read.!! I think this opens up for a great discussion since the minds of us, who have read this, is now open. I’m sorry it took me so long to read it but I told you I would and, man, I learned something very interesting, thanks to you.! 🙂
Thanks much.! I’m actually gonna further educate myself on the issue.!
Wow.! What a very interesting and insightful read.!! I think this opens up for a great discussion since the minds of us, who have read this, is now open. I’m sorry it took me so long to read it but I told you I would and, man, I learned something very interesting, thanks to you.! 🙂
Thanks much.! I’m actually gonna further educate myself on the issue.!
Lilac,
Thank you for your input and the link to the United Nations Human Rights page. As always, I appreciate the way you put things together. I think the UN has exemplified at least some of the positive unity and universal morals that more individual countries should learn to encompass.
Lilac,
Thank you for your input and the link to the United Nations Human Rights page. As always, I appreciate the way you put things together. I think the UN has exemplified at least some of the positive unity and universal morals that more individual countries should learn to encompass.
Honestly is this story really as shocking as we all make it out to be? This isn’t Spain, or South Korea. It’s Uganda, a country that ranks low on the US scale of importance, but high on scale of influence from Westen nations. For the past decade, we’ve made countless political decisions involving denying gay people basic rights. In 2004, we basically had an entire election based on the fear of boys kissing. Recently there have been a rise in HIV-related arrest, an issue that very rarily has a criminal intent. Prop 8 was passed in the liberal bastion otherwise known as California. We have politician left and right who won’t even discuss why they are against homosexual-friendly legislation, but will vote no in a heartbeat (thank you NY Senate).
So when Uganda, a country that we’re probably screwing anyways, drafts legislation that could potential bring harm to gay people, is it more of a shock because some country is doing this or is it a shock because we know we caused this, we just didn’t think someone would actually go that far to actually say “kill the gays” on a national stage?
This is what happens when you trust crack pot American psychologist with no accreditation or record from the middle of nowhere.
Honestly is this story really as shocking as we all make it out to be? This isn’t Spain, or South Korea. It’s Uganda, a country that ranks low on the US scale of importance, but high on scale of influence from Westen nations. For the past decade, we’ve made countless political decisions involving denying gay people basic rights. In 2004, we basically had an entire election based on the fear of boys kissing. Recently there have been a rise in HIV-related arrest, an issue that very rarily has a criminal intent. Prop 8 was passed in the liberal bastion otherwise known as California. We have politician left and right who won’t even discuss why they are against homosexual-friendly legislation, but will vote no in a heartbeat (thank you NY Senate).
So when Uganda, a country that we’re probably screwing anyways, drafts legislation that could potential bring harm to gay people, is it more of a shock because some country is doing this or is it a shock because we know we caused this, we just didn’t think someone would actually go that far to actually say “kill the gays” on a national stage?
This is what happens when you trust crack pot American psychologist with no accreditation or record from the middle of nowhere.
To All,
I would first like to comment about Rick Warren, since he stands in the spotlight of this controversy, and because he represents thousands of Christians in America by virtue of his popularity (Though not all of us wish to be represented by him).
It is easy to look at people who are different than we are and judge them unfairly. It is easy to make assumptions about them: to think that we know and understand them. It is easy to dehumanize them–to make them into monsters. It is easy, but it also unwise.
Rick Warren has unfortunately done this to the LGBT community, and even more disheartening than that is the fact that he is not alone among American Church leaders. I have regrettably had to sit through sermons about the “evil homosexual agenda” and “the war to destroy faith through homosexual deviancy”. Much of the church (but by no means all) has turned the LGBT community into a dark force of immorality in the world that must be confronted aggressively. This type of dehumanization constitutes a grievous error on the part of the church.
Let not the LGBT community do the same. It would be easy to think of the church as an inhuman beast. It would be easy to reduce Rick Warren into an object of resentment. It would be easy to condemn, to assume, and to ridicule people who are different, but it would still be unwise. I have talked with gay-activists in Atlanta who condemn religion, crying that only evil comes from it. I have seen Gay Affirming congregations openly and ignorantly ridicule their peaceful and well-meaning anti-gay brethren. These things are no better.
My plea then, is one of compassion and humility. Jesus taught we ought to treat others as we wish that they would treat us. We ought to return good for the evil we receive, pray for those who mistreat us, and examine our own hearts daily.
Rick Warren is not simply the hero many make him out to be, but neither is he entirely the villain it might be easy to envision him as. The truth about him lies in his humanity: some part good and some part ill. He has helped people, and he has hurt. He has demonstrated selflessness and selfishness alike. I believe his approach to grappling with the issue of sexuality reflects both misguided Biblical interpretation and poor leadership, but he is human, as am I.
I admire Jonathan’s commitment to exposing Rick Warren’s involvement in the escalating Ugandan crisis, and I believe that the pastor has to own up for his part in the bill Jonathan mentioned, if not before men, then at least before God. My hope for Rick is this, that the LGBT community (and especially those of faith) will demonstrate toward him the true attitude of Jesus–one of extreme conviction, and yet simultaneously, one of great love.
To All,
I would first like to comment about Rick Warren, since he stands in the spotlight of this controversy, and because he represents thousands of Christians in America by virtue of his popularity (Though not all of us wish to be represented by him).
It is easy to look at people who are different than we are and judge them unfairly. It is easy to make assumptions about them: to think that we know and understand them. It is easy to dehumanize them–to make them into monsters. It is easy, but it also unwise.
Rick Warren has unfortunately done this to the LGBT community, and even more disheartening than that is the fact that he is not alone among American Church leaders. I have regrettably had to sit through sermons about the “evil homosexual agenda” and “the war to destroy faith through homosexual deviancy”. Much of the church (but by no means all) has turned the LGBT community into a dark force of immorality in the world that must be confronted aggressively. This type of dehumanization constitutes a grievous error on the part of the church.
Let not the LGBT community do the same. It would be easy to think of the church as an inhuman beast. It would be easy to reduce Rick Warren into an object of resentment. It would be easy to condemn, to assume, and to ridicule people who are different, but it would still be unwise. I have talked with gay-activists in Atlanta who condemn religion, crying that only evil comes from it. I have seen Gay Affirming congregations openly and ignorantly ridicule their peaceful and well-meaning anti-gay brethren. These things are no better.
My plea then, is one of compassion and humility. Jesus taught we ought to treat others as we wish that they would treat us. We ought to return good for the evil we receive, pray for those who mistreat us, and examine our own hearts daily.
Rick Warren is not simply the hero many make him out to be, but neither is he entirely the villain it might be easy to envision him as. The truth about him lies in his humanity: some part good and some part ill. He has helped people, and he has hurt. He has demonstrated selflessness and selfishness alike. I believe his approach to grappling with the issue of sexuality reflects both misguided Biblical interpretation and poor leadership, but he is human, as am I.
I admire Jonathan’s commitment to exposing Rick Warren’s involvement in the escalating Ugandan crisis, and I believe that the pastor has to own up for his part in the bill Jonathan mentioned, if not before men, then at least before God. My hope for Rick is this, that the LGBT community (and especially those of faith) will demonstrate toward him the true attitude of Jesus–one of extreme conviction, and yet simultaneously, one of great love.
I think that it is a very horrible thing that leaders in Uganda are still considering the bill after all the protests.
I think that it is a very horrible thing that leaders in Uganda are still considering the bill after all the protests.